Indoor Hand Launch Glider US Record

[mike]

Stan Buddenbohm flew an indoor discus launch glider for 1:43.8 on Saturday 22/11/09 at Tustin, California, USA.

It's not clear yet if this flight will be submitted for an official World Record - I hope it can be.

Lee Hines took the picture below and notified us of Stan's achievement.

Here's a report, video and more pictures.  ("Cat" means catapult launch glider {CLG} - they are not abusing pets!)

There's more info in these threads

http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php/topic,2926.msg24435/boardseen.html#new

http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php/topic,2669.0.html


Awesome.........

Regards,

Mike Fantham

[olivers dad]

Fantastic, I am sure thats a copy of otty's machine  . Mike just seen the video. fantastic transition. is it the angle off the camera or does the flight towards the camera seem slower. and the flying away looks faster, would this be a phygoid type effect (my limited knowledge of ff)

[PeeTee]

Mike, as you so rightly say, awesome!

It's not just the DLG flight, but also the catty record as well. As far as I know, the best times with a 12" CLG in the UK are a little over 90 seconds. Certainly Mark Benns achieved this at the Dome a few years ago.

I thought I was doing well by getting into the mid 80s, but the times at Tustin are a full 30 secs longer I don't think  we could do that well at Cardington as there appear to be too many girders (and I have a couple of models sitting up there )

Peter

[mike]

is it the angle off the camera or does the flight towards the camera seem slower. and the flying away looks faster, would this be a phygoid type effect (my limited knowledge of ff)

I think it's an optical illusion caused by watching the model at varying distances against the girders.  I always thought my chuckies looked to be flying faster indoors compared to flying out-side.

Mike F

[CHE]

I was well impressed. Stan really gives it some serious helmet compared to the Japenese guy who previously held the record (video also on the HPA site).

I have no doubt that at its best Cardington would have been a good enough site for such records (Phil Ball did 1:25 ish in the 70s there) but I'm told by my fellow Newbiggingin, Bruce of Bruce of that Ilk, who went down a few months back that there are now seriously large holes in the roof. 

My best IHLG time was a little over half of what Stan/s achieved !

CHE

[JefO]

.....that there are now seriously large holes in the roof. 

CHE
 
when I was trying to work out where my Bantam had free flighted off to from Old Warden, I had a look at Google Earth, it showed two big hangars at Cardington, one with big holes and one without.

Jef

[PeeTee]

The reconditioned hangar was at one time  occupied by the Building Research Establishment if I recall, but has latterly been taken over by the film industry. I had to go there on business the other year & ended up parking next to the Gotham City SWAT team van...........they were making the latest Batman film

The "condemned" hangar used to have much of the floorspace occupied by jigs & tools to make the Skyship gondolas, but I understand that it has now been cleared. Airships are still housed there from time to time for C of A recertification. Parts of the roof had nets slung underneath to catch falling debris - and also models (including mine & Stevie B's ). The hangars are listed buildings and are due to be refurbished, but this is contingent on the owners getting planning permission to build houses on another part of the site. This is likely held due to the economy!

Peter (mine of useless information)

[JefO]

Hey Nick it's made of wood!

Is it just me, or did anyone else look at the subject video and think that it is not worth even trying to compete with such amazing quality. Amazing attention to detail. Amazing venue. Amazingly empty.

Amazed,

Jef

[CHE]

Mr Tee,

Bruce of Bruce of that Ilk said that he thinks they do have planning permission but they have to restore the hanger as part of the deal. As you say the financial problems has scuppered/delayed the housing for the time being hence the hanger being a mess.

Of course if you had a flat round the corner from Cardington with some chance of entry then you have a chance to get these times. Maybe we should put our names down for one to kick start the renovation.

CHE

[mike]

Is it just me, or did anyone else look at the subject video and think that it is not worth even trying to compete with such amazing quality. Amazing attention to detail. Amazing venue. Amazingly empty.

Is this the same Jef I know?  Stan's flights are amazing but he's a regular dedicated hard working guy - I've had the pleasure of meeting him and flying catapult gliders against him outdoors.

You can't compete directly now but you can set your own standard and then keep working on improvements - that's how all record holders do it.  Stan didn't take up CLG/HLG last year!  I have never done more than 1:15 (Javelin launch late 70s) but I started at 20-30 seconds in about 1965.....

There's a former World Record holder posting in this thread so it can be done by mortals. (paper glider duration - set in Cardington).

The way I see it, if a good F3K flyer can do 2:30 in dead air, 2 minutes is within reach for a FF DLG.  The launch presets and bunt are easy with available technology.  The difference in stability needs will take some work....

Regards,

Mike F

[JefO]

Mike

I read your post with interest, as you are very well respected within UK freeflight circles, but there are a couple of points I feel I have to say, probably out of ignorance.

1) My bottle of single malt says that a 1.5m rc discus launch glider won't do 2m.30s indoors in the UK without some energy assistance. Now I know that you haven't said that an rc dlg will do 2m.30s indoors, but that is the implication I am forced to derive as you say that 2m with a ff dlg is attainable in dead air.

2) You imply there is a difference in stability needs between ff and rc dlgs, but I don't think there is a problem trimming r/c discus launch gliders for freeflight stability is there? Then again, I was never a good F3K flier, as I never got anywhere near 2m 30s in dead air.

I used to set up my rc dlgs on those very rare dead calm days by trimming to achieve the stability to glide slowly in circles, without radio interference from me, after the launch, bunt, transition to thermal flap setting and kick to one side (it didn't seem to make any difference whether the kick was to the left or the right, despite having assymetric fins) then just watching as the model slowly descended in concentric circles.

I am obviously misunderstanding the full picture here, so please can you set me straight again? I just can't see any chink in Stan's armour. If 2m is possible indoors, he will be there before I get 90seconds.

Best regards,

Jef

[jetpipe]

If you took the radio out of the RC DLG it might do 2.5 mins in still air.

                            John.

[CHE]

Mr O,

Here is a video of the previous record holder, not the record flight but a close one. He simply stands there and throws up, no run, no rotation but he did 100 seconds.

http://www.jmaf.jp/ishii.wmv

So you could argue (but I wont) that Stan's MODEL was worse as it took him the full Monty throw to do less than 4 seconds more.

In summary, the record will go to 2 minutes once someone puts together a Japenese style model with a Buddenbohm throw in the the right venue. It could be you .....................

CHE

[mike]

1) My bottle of single malt says ......

I think your bottle of malt is safe.  There is no site that I know of in the UK where a 60m RC DLG launch would be possible.  That’s the sort of height I would estimate for the 2:30 flight.  Richard and his like would hit the roof in Cardington without a problem.  Don't forget that folks are already talking about 2:45 - 3:00 F3K times in 'dead air'.  {I'm being conservative compared to that.}
The 2 minutes is a guess based on the javelin record going from 60 to 90 seconds over the years.  103.8 seconds has come fairly soon after the FF guys started to discus launch.  I don’t know how long it will take to reach two minutes but I think they will.

2) You imply there is a difference in stability needs between ff and rc dlgs........

The stability comment is based on recovery from a disturbance.  I don’t think the dihedral is enough for FF stability, the fin may be too big and the pitch stability used on RC DLGs isn’t enough for normal FF purposes.  It may not be much of a problem to sort out but remember that you need a tightish, stable circle for indoor flying and good stability to make the transition from climb to glide.  However, a good indoor glider will be more ‘knife edge’ than one you could use outside.

.......If 2m is possible indoors, he will be there before I get 90seconds.

I don’t agree that Stan can’t be beaten.  Can Jef Ott beat him?  I don’t know – but what an achievement to get to 90 seconds trying – you’d be winning your share of outdoor FF HLG events by then.

Now back to that Signature 2++ you're thinking about....................

regards,

Mike F

[JefO]

The stability comment is based on recovery from a disturbance....

Having had somewhat limited exposure to indoor flying, I had forgotten that there sometimes is a bit of movement when people walk around / open doors / steer their models with balloons etc and the difference between that and outdoors with an rc model temporarily in freeflight mode, is that the upset rc model can be righted again before it meets its shadow.

Think you may have found the weakness in my OD FF DLG. 

Signature1 had no recovery from air disturbances despite transitioning perfectly at the end of the launch phase.

Signature2 is awaiting some of that "Still Air" which people keep talking of 

Thanks for discussing, and discusing

Jef