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Author Topic: Free flight electric  (Read 14836 times)
boffin
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« on: June 04, 2006, 07:16:30 pm »

On the cadge again for information for an embryonic electric free flight model. What I would like to do is..........

1. Motor speed control via a conventional brushless ESC with the pwm speed control supplied from a microcontroller(?) time based output file so that I can run climb, cruise, low pass and landing phases i.e. varying pwm motor input  as a function of time with a push button start facility.

2. Microcontroller to output a time based signal to operate a solenoid actuated de-thermaliser i.e. authentic looking vintage DT system without setting fire to the countryside.

Is there a commercial/cottage industry for this type of control?
Can you direct me to a relevant web site?
Would a PIC chip be capable of this and where do I found out about the capabilites of this device?
Anyone done this before by another method (if so how?)
How daft is this ?? (don't answer this question)

Best regards,

Ian


« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 06:23:47 pm by boffin » Logged
mitch
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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2006, 08:01:59 pm »

Not what you are after exactly, but somewhere near it Wink

Have  a look at this, or maybe you have seen it already?
http://www.atomicworkshop.co.uk/ZombiePUP.asp?ID=100

Hope it helps
« Last Edit: June 04, 2006, 10:04:58 pm by richard » Logged

Pete M
mike
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« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2006, 09:21:55 am »

Ian,

There is a good summary of free flight electronic timers at www.gregorie.ukfsn.org/freeflight/timers/index.html.  Have a look round the site there's some good stuff on other aspects of FF too.

These are (or at least were initially) PIC based.

These devices run off a 4/5 cell Nimh/NiCd pack (a bec/regulator would do) and can drive several servos to pre-programmed positions at (up to ten?)pre-programmed time values.  The movements can be jumps (step changes) or ramps over a time interval to a new position.  This would drive an ESC or a servo.  Free flight models with electronic timers use servos to move surfaces and have a mechanism that lets the extreme position of the tail servo produce a DT action.  They use 5-9 gm servos for this.

Timers tend to use Palm Pilot type devices for progamming.

F1Q is the new FF electric duration class and some people are doing what you propose to control the climb and glide of the models

The device that  mitch-air describes is aimed at indoor models and is perfect for their requirements - I think you need a bit more flexibility.

I would be happy to bring an electronic timer equiped model to an F3K event and explain in more detail.  Let me know when you plan to come out.  !0/6?

Regards
Mike Fantham
« Last Edit: June 05, 2006, 01:01:05 pm by mike » Logged
boffin
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« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2006, 05:16:10 pm »

Pete,

Thanks for the 'Zombie' data...this will do everything except the DT but restricted to 4 amps / 30 watts and a brushed motor.

I am guessing that it would just about run a FF 36" span Tomboy in calm conditions and therefore worth a go.

Mike,

Thanks for the link to the bigboystoys, the MTK 446 or Jensen devices are the business and would do all I require and more. All appear to be Palm pilot programmed and the programming language on the MTK is what I recall from a PIC chip. I need to research this further to decide whether or not to venture forth. I wasn't aware of F1Q and would expect that this would produce some interesting technology. Also worthy of some research.

Thanks for the offer of a gander at an electronic timer at an f3k meet but I am grounded at present waiting for the NHS to organise an op. So, no flying, no attending comps , just the occasional workshop passout. I will take you up on yr offer at a later date, if I may.

Thank you both for your help.

Best regards,

Ian
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 10:57:22 am by boffin » Logged
JefO
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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2006, 10:44:41 pm »

Hi Ian / Mike

http://www.eft-inc.com/models/ff/smoothie.htm

This one does the things you want and DT and lost model function (chirp sound) starts ten minutes after DT, as an optional extra.

I actually came across this looking for a model finder to fit to the Gaucho, this would not be appropriate for my model though.

Sorry to wander off subject but can you recommend a suitable device?

Thanks,
Jef
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mike
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« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2006, 09:38:59 am »

Jef,

If you want a radio 'bug', it's going to cost you a bit to get started.

The majority of people in this country use BIOTRACK:-  http://www.biotrack.co.uk/tagother.php#aircraft  this uses an authorised tracking frequency and they mainly do animal trackers.  You can get a 4 gram package with a 300 mm antenna that would be ok for the Gaucho but it will cost you about
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boffin
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« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2006, 06:39:34 pm »

Jefo,

The Smoothie is an even better toy than the Zombie......I want one or two.

FF power using pylon configuration with the motor turned up, with right panel wash in , tip panel wash out , tail tilt and rudder trim is no gimme. I reckon the chances of rekitting are about 50%, unless you are Mike F , who has been managing without an RX for years.

Trouble ye not re model finder, the task is to get it trimmed for right climb, left glide without nerfing it into infinity. Once this has been done, then
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JefO
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« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2006, 08:05:54 pm »

Hi Ian

If you get your smoothies could you let me know what you think of them please?

Watching a 1943 free flight rubber model that had been converted to electric (+R/c) flying at Bartletts this evening was lovely.

Regarding a programmable electric freeflight model, I may do something along the same lines that you have described one day (sounds familiar! Wink ).

Thanks for the realistic advice regarding OOSing the Gaucho. There is no way I am going to spend
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mike
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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2006, 09:29:54 pm »

This is an extract from Southern California Aero Team's Electronic news letter, issue 1012 - see past issues at www.aeromodel.com/TM/X3 see Editorial and latest news and events.  There is other stuff of posible interest on the first web site below too.

Regards
Mike Fantham

(Word 'below' added above for clarity - 21/6)


F1Q Timer/Controller is now in production
=========================================


I recently told you about the prototype F1Q Timer/Controller developed by 
Sergio Zigras.  There has been further development work done by Sergio, and  the
unit is now in production.  It will be available from Bob  Selman, a model
equipment supplier most noted for his micro  R/C components, but a source of
components useful for any  modeller.  Details and ordering information will
appear on his  website (_www.bsdmicrorc.com)_ (http://www.bsdmicrorc.com) .  The 
timer will be priced at $30.00, plus shipping, and should be available in about
 two weeks, so keep checking the website.
 
The production timer has all the features required for running and 
controlling electric motors for the F1Q class.  It is now easier to program  than the
prototypes I reported on previously, and has a wider range of control 
parameters.  Moreover, it is versatile enough to be of use in other  electric
competition FF classes, or for use in sport models.  The main  features of the timer
are:
 
1. ESC (Electronic Speed Control) control function, with motor run time 
programmable from 1 second to 63 seconds, in 1 second steps
 
2. Motor speed from full-off to full-on, and anywhere in between, in 63 
programmable steps
 
3. Optional dethermalising servo control built in, programmable from 15 
seconds to 15 minutes, in 15 second steps
 
4. Soft start for motor to avoid harm to gears (if used) and to comply  with
most safety starting requirements of commercial ESCs
 
5. Timer/Controller works with both brushed and brushless  motor ESCs
 
6. Programmed parameters are saved in non-volatile memory (parameters do  not
have to be entered for each flight, if no changes are needed)
 
7. A default mode is included in the programming, to set the F1Q 25 second 
maximum motor run, full speed motor operation and 3 minute D/T setting, all at
a  single setting
 
8. Built-in safety lock prevents unintentional restarting of the motor  after
a flight (a requirement of the FAI class specification)
 
All this comes in a tiny package, weighing about 2 grams.  When  installed in
a model, there is a push button switch which can be conveniently  located
under the modeller's thumb while the model is held ready for  launch.  To prepare
for a flight, the battery would be connected and when  ready to fly this push
button would be pressed and held.  Only then would  the motor start and run
up to its pre-programmed speed.  At the moment  of launch the push button is
released, and the motor run timer  starts.  At the end of the programmed time
the motor stops, but the timer  keeps running.  At the end of the following
programmed period the  timer signals the D/T servo to move from one end of its
travel to the  other, in order to release a D/T line.  The timer then waits 2
seconds,  returns the servo to its start position, and shuts down.  The motor run
 time, motor speed and D/T time are very accurate and highly repeatable, 
being microprocessor controlled.  The use of the servo operated D/T  function is
optional, and can be omitted, for instance if there is another D/T  control.
 
Finally, in case anyone is wondering, I have no vested interest in the 
timer.  Reporting on it is just my way of helping to promote the  F1Q class in
particular, and electric-powered FF modelling in general.
 
Jack Reid


And so is the Black magic F1Q
=============================

This is a summary of the functionality


There is version of the Black Magic 3 servo timer specifically intended for F1Q. One of
the 3 servos must be an electric motor controller, optional with BEC capability.  This
« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 11:17:09 am by mike » Logged
boffin
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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2006, 09:53:19 pm »

Mike,

Thanks for the info, you are a real hero.

There are just too many toys to play with and too little time to play with them.

Regards,

Ian
« Last Edit: June 20, 2006, 10:07:19 pm by boffin » Logged
JefO
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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2006, 09:54:31 pm »

Fantastic!
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« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2006, 04:58:42 pm »

I've been keeping an eye on timers that might be suitable for F1Q or similar models. This assumes at least 7 cells (NiCd or NiMH) or 3 cells Li-poly and a timer that can handle up to 20-25 amps. Nothing looks ideal at present apart from tje Black Magic:

- The Smoothie has the current capacity if its used with an ESC, but is strictly motor and d/t
  controls only. You program this by pushing buttons: no Palm is needed.
  Also I'm doubtful whether its preflight startup is complex enough to qualify as the
  safety lock that F1Q rules require.

- The timer promoted by Sergio Zigras seems to be a reprogramming job on a Bob Selman Zitron
  CL timer, originally designed to control the motor in an electric Scale model and to operate
  retracting wheels. It has a decent safety lock for F1Q and uses an ESC for power and to control
  the motor, so its good for N1Cd/NiMH/Li-poly and brushed/brushless. Its biggest drawback is that
  it requires a servo for d/t and then drives it from one limit to the other and then back again, so
  there's no possibility of controlling auto-rudder or VIT from it. The price is right, though ($30) and
  you program this by pushing buttons: no Palm is needed.

- Best of the bunch of the full-race timers is the Black Magic. You have full control of 1 or 2 servos,
  so you get full control of AR, VIT, D/T, wing wiggler.... and, because it uses an ESC to run the motor
  so it should work with N1Cd/NiMH/Li-poly and brushed/brushless. It has the required F1Q safety
  start too. However, its relatively expensive ands does need a Palm to program it.

If you want to save cash and don't mind waving a soldering iron round, the best bet currently is to grab a copy of the 2006 Free Flight Forum and build Trevor Grey's clever electronic power switch. Its cheap (all bits are available from Maplins for under 9 quid), a LOT lighter than a 25 amp microswitch and does the F1Q safety lock thing to. You use a clockwork or Tomy timer for motor run - just put the stop microswitch under one of the timer levers - and d/t (and the tail feathers too if you're keen.

I've got the bits for one of these but haven't assembled it yet. Details will appear on my website, www.gregorie.org/freeflight when its assembled and tested. I''m planning to control mine with a Mike Woodhouse 3 function Tomy timer.

Martin
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boffin
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« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2006, 07:58:42 pm »

For the sake of completeness, a very simple FF duration timer for sport flying found on the www.peterboroughmfc.org web site designed by the chairman Ted Szklaruk. Cost would be less than
« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 08:11:26 pm by boffin » Logged
boffin
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« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2006, 04:17:19 pm »

Just a short note to confirm that the Pboro quickie FF timer has been fabricated and has been tested in a Tom Thumb with the following spec........

   22" span 60 gm Tom Thumb
   130 mah 4 gm 1 cell LiPo
   8 gm Atomic Workshop Voodoo 25 pager motor + reduction box
   5x2.5 prop
   BUZ71 MOSFET

The graphic shows the guts of the timer just behind the motor. The FET is glued to the floor and all the other components are soldered to the FET.
The device can be set to give anywhere between 10 and 65 secs motor run and the LiPo lasts for > 20 flights at 30 secs.

A inexpensive easy to make timer that weighs < 5gms and lets you run LiPo for free flight.......try one , you will like it.

Regards, Ian


* tt_vd25.jpg (95.46 KB, 1527x1062 - viewed 338 times.)
« Last Edit: May 03, 2008, 05:40:57 pm by boffin » Logged
mike
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« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2006, 08:33:15 am »

For the sake of completeness, a very simple FF duration timer for sport flying found on the www.peterboroughmfc.org web site designed by the chairman Ted Szklaruk. Cost would be less than
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